On today’s episode of the 5 Things podcast:
Mother’s Day. Believe it or not it’s a holiday that is not without controversy. Those who love it see it as a day set aside to honor their mother and the mother’s in their life. For others it is a painful day filled with disappointment and grief. For single mom’s its rarely a day to relax and reflect. In fact, it’s often just another day. For those who have lost their mother it’s a day of reflection but also of pain as the grief takes over.
On this Mother’s Day three mothers, USA Today’s Connie Schultz, Shannon Rae Green and Ashley May, discuss love, loss, motherhood, and Mother’s Day.
To read Connie Schultz’s article click here. To follow Connie on Twitter click here.
To follow James Brown on Twitter click here.
To follow Shannon Green on Twitter click here.
To follow Ashley on Twitter click here.
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Hit play on the player above to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript below. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.
James Brown: Hello, and welcome to 5 Things. I’m James Brown. It’s Sunday, May 8th, 2022. On Sundays, we do things a bit differently focusing on one topic instead of five. And this week is for the moms.
I don’t know the first thing about being a mom aside from watching my own mom. She raised me and my six siblings all by herself. I’ve also watched plenty of the other moms in my life too. It’s not an easy job and I don’t envy them at all. As I do in just about all things I seek first to understand, then to be understood. I’m turning to a few of the moms in my life for their thoughts on love, loss, motherhood, and of course, Mother’s Day. We begin with USA Today’s Connie Schultz. As she wrote in a recent column, she has plenty of experience with what she called solo motherhood. Connie Schultz, welcome to 5 Things.
Connie Schultz: James, it’s so great to be back with you. Thank you.
James Brown: There’s a photo in your piece on single moms and Mother’s Day.
Connie Schultz: Yeah.
James Brown: It’s of you and your daughter. What’s her name?
Connie Schultz: Kaitlyn. I call her Kate.
James Brown: Take us back there. Tell us about the photo and what was your life like back then?
Connie Schultz: That photo was taken shortly before I became a single mother, and it was in weeks. I sensed it was coming. I wasn’t the one who initiated the whole thing, but I knew it had to happen. And the thing about the photo, the reason it’s in a frame on my desk all these years later is because to me it still symbolizes how I wanted always to protect her as mothers do with their children. And my arms are wrapped around her and hers or wrapped around mine so tightly.
I’m wind blown. I’m not wearing any makeup. I’ve got an old faded sundress on. And yet when I look at that photo of myself now, first I think about how critical I have always been about how I look. And I’m just telling everyone, if you think you’re critical now wait for 10 years and you’ll feel really silly that you ever cared about that at your younger age.
But I look at the picture and I do see a fierceness in me that I was going to need in a very challenging time in my life. And I was going to have to balance the fierceness needed to protect her, but the motherly love that was going to have to insulate her from ever knowing that. I know it sounds like such a complicated series of thoughts with one photo, but as we all know, or if we think about it, I suspect we most would agree, a photo never tells one story.
Right now I’m currently working on my second novel and one of the major premises is that the photos we put in frames are often… Well, sometimes we want to convey a certain thing. Sometimes we are trying to create a mythology about our lives. So a lot of times we’re just trying to remember the happiest moments. For me that photo reminds me of one of my strongest moments.
James Brown: The expression on your face. I don’t know if it’s pride. I don’t know if it’s a mix. I would say pride and glee. Does that sound about right?
Connie Schultz: Well, certainly pride in my girl and how she was holding onto me so tightly. I don’t know if you noticed, but her dress is wet because we had just been waiting. So the bottom of her dress is wet and I don’t care. In that way there is definitely glee. We’re not going to care what we look like here and she didn’t want to face the camera. She just wanted to hold on to me, which, oh my gosh moved me. I was fine with that. I decided this picture should be what she wants as well. And it was just in that moment, I could feel the hope of the future even though it was so very uncertain for both of us, because you know what is always rock solid love.
James Brown: In your piece you say you developed a radar for the lowered expectations of others. Most of you single mothers know what I mean.
Connie Schultz: Yeah.
James Brown: I’m not a single mom. I’ll never be one. Tell me more about that. What are the doubts?
Connie Schultz: I can tell you a story that has stayed with me for many, many years, an incident. I was a newly single mother. It was my daughter’s first few months at an all girls school which she attended for three or four years. I think it was, and then we went back to public school, but in that moment I needed her to be safe and secure. I wanted her to have a lot of attention and the Christmas, the winter break was coming up. We had the holiday concert and I was the only mother among the group who had a career and had a job. And one of the mothers in front of all the other mothers said she heard me answer a question from someone who said, “What are you going to do for the next two weeks?” And I said, “Well, I have to work, but I’ve set up some arrangements for my daughter with a friend.”
And this mother just said, “You have to work.” And I said, “Yes, I do.” And she said, “What will you do with your daughter?” And I suppose the mystery for me kicked in because I said, “Well, I put her in a crate with her food and her water and she does just fine the entire day that I’m gone.” And she looked immediately embarrassed as well. “I didn’t mean,” I just interrupted her and I said, “Actually, you did mean that I’m not taking care of my girl, but I always take care of my daughter.” That may sound like a really abrupt and stern response to those who’ve never been in that situation. But when you are a single mother in my experience, particularly in my early days, nobody worried more about what kind of mother I could be to my daughter than me.
I worried about it all the time. And you might recall in the column, I talked about pacing your floor in the middle of the night like a ghost in your own house. It was about money worry certainly, but it was so much more than that. It was constantly on my mind. “Could I be enough?” Her brother was grown, but he was still coming around. My son is just a wonderful brother, a terrific son, but he was 12 years older. It was mostly my daughter and me and I did worry a lot about how I was going to be able to come through for her. I don’t see that I would’ve ever done it differently because it’s just the nature of being a single mom. And that mother’s comments to me, there were so many like that or people even just talking about, “Wow, you just seemed so upbeat.”
Meaning if I were in your shoes, I could never be happy again. And interestingly, the mother who said that to me all those years ago, ended up going through a divorce years later and did reach out to me. You go through this long enough, you hope that the thing you’ll decide you’re going to do is make it easier for someone in your circumstances. And I was glad to be any help I could be to her just in terms of, “Here’s what you need to know. You’re a wonderful mother. You’re going to still be a wonderful mother. You’re going to have hard times, but you had hard times in a bad marriage too.”
James Brown: About that incident, I’m just wondering as I’m a childless person.
Connie Schultz: You’re child free.
James Brown: Child free, at least hopefully not forever, but that’s the way things are at the moment. Did people often just take shots at you? That woman in this instance that you’re describing just called you a bad parent to your face?
Connie Schultz: In the beginning I was very defensive, but over time because yes, those comments are fairly common. I came to understand them as fear speaking, that many women and I was certainly one of them at the time, fear what would happen if they were on their own, or fear who they would be if there was no one partnering with them in parenting since we’re talking about motherhood. And coming to understand that’s where a lot of those questions were coming from made it much easier for me to not take it personally. Sometimes just to ask them. I’m not afraid to say to someone, “I’m wondering what I said or did that made you think that was an appropriate thing to ask me,” but more often I would simply say, “I’m really curious why that’s your question for me.”
And sometimes we had meaningful conversations, ones that really stayed with me. Sometimes we didn’t, but I learned to hold my own. I think being a single mom for all those years helped me become a newspaper columnist because I was so used to the inappropriate comment being made to me that I was ready for reader mail. I have to say the hate mail is really bad, but it wasn’t like I wasn’t used to having to be clear on who I am. And James, I want to stress this too. I had incredible friends who were so supportive of me, always and still are and were there for me when I was a single mother. Most of them married, not all.
I don’t want to overstate the negative because it could have had a greater impact than it did. But I had such support that it was impossible for me not to feel that I was going to make it with my daughter. I had low moments. Sometimes I had those late night worries, but ultimately I had too many people believing in me, most of them women. This is what we do for one another. It was impossible for me to think I wouldn’t get through it through.
James Brown: When most people hear this it’ll be on Mother’s Day or just after. Do you have any strong opinions about the holiday?
Connie Schultz: Yeah.
James Brown: Go ahead.
Connie Schultz: Sorry to interrupt you. Was there more you wanted to [inaudible 00:10:25]?
James Brown: No worries. No worries. Go ahead.
Connie Schultz: I’m not a fan of it. I never have been, partly because I’ve been writing about women’s lives for decades. I understand the pain that exists for so many women, so many adult children who didn’t have good mothers. Not every mother’s a great mom, come on, and they can feel really left out. It’s a sad time for those who’ve lost their mothers. I’ll never forget the year my mother died in 1999. All these emails, all these ads, don’t forget your mother, could just reduce me to a puddle in the first Mother’s Day. It’s one of those greeting card holidays now where the measure is, “What did you do for them?”
One of the reasons I wrote the column I wrote, is because that puts children of single mothers in particular, in such a bad place often, such a painful place because they know the message. They know the cultural message. You’re supposed to treat mom special on Mother’s Day, but so many divorces are fraught and you can’t count on the ex-spouse or soon to be ex-spouse to make sure that they have even just made a special card for their moms. That’s why I wrote that column in large part, because I wanted to encourage people to step up. If they know a single mom just ask her, do they have any plans? Is anybody helping them? It doesn’t have to be a lot of money. We’re not talking about pouring money at this, throwing money at this I should say. We’re talking about making it possible for little kids who are generous by nature but depend on adults to help them find the magic.
James Brown: Any advice that you would give us non mothers about supporting moms on Mother’s Day?
Connie Schultz: Well, James, knowing the little bit that I now know you, I don’t think I need to tell people like you and certainly not you, how to be kind regardless of a person’s parental status. Motherhood is a tough job and it never goes away, but there are all kinds of people who love children. They are uncles and aunts. They are neighbors, teachers, grandparents. For me, what I will do is I always do a Mother’s Day. I will post a photo. I think I have the one this year. It’s going to be of my daughter working at her desk and profile and a shadow. In the foreground, you can see her son standing right next to her. He’s six, working also. He’s drawing. I wish happy Mother’s Day to any woman who has loved a child. And for those for whom this is a hard and struggling day, may it lend gently for them.
James Brown: Long time listeners of this program know Shannon Green well. She’s here with me right now. How are you Shannon?
Shannon Rae Gre…: I’m doing well, James, thanks for having me on.
James Brown: So Shannon, you’re a new mom. What does Mother’s Day mean to you?
Shannon Rae Gre…: Yeah, I think that I feel pretty new with this to be on the receiving end of kudos and reflection. I’ve long thought that holidays exist for a reason. It’s an opportunity to slow down and really reflect on important things in your life. Life just is always zooming by so fast. So I think it’s good to consider caregiving. So that’s something that I’ve always loved about Mother’s Day and Father’s day. When I think of caregiving, I think of a lot of the fun stuff about it, like love and affection and games and just moments of joy.
But there’s another side to this coin. I think that’s what caregivers should get medals for, like the ultimate sacrifice. There is just not a lot of time for you to only think about yourself. I think self-care is so important for parents. And I think that might be part of why this holiday is special in my book, in my opinion.
James Brown: Does this day, this holiday, Mother’s Day mean something different to you now that you are a mom?
Shannon Rae Gre…: I think it does. I think I thought about parenting for a lot of my life because I always knew I wanted to be a mom. I think it’s hard for me to contemplate that my son Phoenix, is going to be two soon and it’s even more difficult for me to contemplate the intensity of our bond. It’s just unbreakable and it’s going to be around forever. I think of how excited we both get when we see each other, how sometimes we just wrap our arms around each other and just lay on the couch. We’re both just getting so much joy out of that affection. I also think about how there are times when I do get really overwhelmed, but it’s nice to come back to the idea of how much I know he needs me and that really helps me to get over the hump. But yeah, it has changed and it’s been really sweet.
You spoke earlier to Connie about how it’s important to be there for single moms. I think it’s important in general to realize that there’s a lot of different ways that people experience parenting. And so I think making space for that, different emotions that people have with their own parents, I think important to ask people these questions so that they feel they have space to share what’s really going on in their life.
James Brown: I understand you spent some time discussing this with one of our colleagues.
Shannon Rae Gre…: That’s right. I got a chance to talk to Ashley May who is an editor at USA Today and she and I actually worked on a podcast about five years ago about her becoming a mom. It’s called Due Date.
Ashley May: I’m here with two of my coworkers who are also pregnant, [inaudible 00:16:15].
Speaker 1: I’m having a girl.
Ashley May: Yay.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Shannon Rae Gre…: It’s a boy. I keep saying, I don’t know what I’m going to do with that thing. I’m like that whole penis thing. I don’t know what I’m going to do. There’s a lot going on.
Speaker 1: You have a penis right now.
Shannon Rae Gre…: It’s right inside me.
Speaker 1: [inaudible 00:16:30]
Shannon Rae Gre…: I really didn’t know a ton about pregnancy and expanding your family close up until I started working on that podcast. So it was really interesting to have her reach out to me. She brought a completely new perspective because she is mourning. Ashley’s mom passed away a year ago on Mother’s Day. And she reached out to me to share a letter she wrote to her mom that she penned just a few days ago and she wanted to talk about it. So here is that interview.
Ashley, thanks so much for being here and in particular to be willing to be so vulnerable about the loss of your mom. Tell me about your mom, Debbie, and what you wrote about this past year in a letter to her.
Ashley May: I was trying to figure out what to do for Mother’s Day. I decided I was going to write this letter to her. I was picking up the phone and filling her in on everything from the past year that had happened. And my mom was definitely my best friend. And I feel like as we got, oh, this is so emotional. We laughed a lot together. My dad is pretty serious, and there was one time when he came home from work and we were just laughing hysterically in the kitchen, probably over nothing. And he was like, “What is going on? What is happening here?”
But that was the way my mom was. That was the way my grandmother was too. It just runs in the family I guess. We loved to laugh. And as I grew up, we went through the things that all mothers and daughters do. There was definitely a middle school, high school period of screaming at each other. We had ups and downs. We weren’t always so rosy. When I got married and I had kids of my own, I think mom and I got probably the closest. Even though geographically we weren’t always the closest, she was always a phone call away. And I knew in any emergency situation, mom would be there for me.
Didn’t you try to have me naturally first?
Debbie: Yeah. Oh yes. I went through everything, the whole thing. I got the whole experience. I didn’t want to leave anything out because I was in, one child let’s do everything. Yes.
Speaker X: You might as well do a C-section too.
Debbie: Right, yes. This would make it more exciting.
Speaker X: Give me the whole buffet.
Debbie: I really was thinking about this interview.
Speaker X: And you didn’t want to feel your story was it?
Debbie: Yes. I had to talk to the rest of you.
Speaker X: And you did.
Shannon Rae Gre…: So what do you think about hearing your mom joke with her friends about giving birth to you?
Ashley May: Yeah, I know. It makes me laugh hearing my mom talk about giving birth to me for sure. And that was my mom’s always natural reaction. We did joke around a lot. We did make light of things because mom did go through a lot of really hard things medically, and this was definitely the way that we handled things, and it wasn’t that we were pushing them aside. It’s just that sometimes you have moments, seasons, years of life that are really hard and you have to laugh. You have to find moments of joy throughout all of it.
Shannon Rae Gre…: Yeah. There’s another really beautiful moment from your mom on the podcast. Something that she says it’s important for all parents to remember when it comes to their children. So let’s go ahead and play that moment from the podcast too.
Debbie: You have to remember to slow down with your children, especially when they’re young and enjoy the simple things and take that time to do that. I know you will, but it’s really vital that they learn about just smelling a flower, or seeing a beautiful sunset, or just taking a walk with them. That might seem boring to you but to them it’s a big deal. And even looking at insects, and shells on a beach, and the waves coming in, and all those things that God has made that we take for granted. We need to sometimes point those out to our children and how thankful we should be for each of those things. Being thankful, I think is maybe the greatest thing you can teach your children to be.
Ashley May: Yeah. When I hear that advice from mom, she could’ve easily say that to me right now, because life is busy. And this idea, like mom said, it’s a simple one to just hop and smell the flowers, stop and look at the insects. Even that just makes me think of today, just trying to rush my kids into the car, get them harnessed in their seats, off to school. And it’s like, oh, looking at the time I’m going to be late. I’m going to be late for work. And then saying, I’m going to be late for work when they’re trying to show you something like a clover that’s in the yard.
It’s a moment like that where I need to think about mom and where I do think about mom and where she is still teaching me to slow down and to recognize that these moments are fleeting and really what matters in life are those relationships. And also remembering what was special about my relationship with my mom. It was those moments, laughing in the kitchen and being silly with a blow dryer while we’re doing our hair and just the small simple things, like mom bringing me a book to school because I forgot it.
Shannon Rae Gre…: Ashley, thank you so much for talking about your amazing mom, Debbie. I really want to thank you for being so open about the grief you’re going through. I think it will help other people going through something similar and I think that’s really a big gift.
Ashley May: Thank you. Thank you for making space for this. Thank you for making space for me. It is cathartic for me to tell this and I really do hope that it helps someone somewhere. But I can definitely tell you it does help me to take this time and just really reflect on how this year has been so big, and scary, and emotional in so many ways, but I’m still standing. We’re still here. We’re still going.
Shannon Rae Gre…: And I want to close out by saying to all the moms, all the parents, all the people who love kids in their lives so unconditionally to the point that you’re throwing caution to the wind with a love that is sacrificial and deep, happy Mother’s Day. Tell me about what’s on your mind today. You can find me at Shannon Rae Green on Twitter. Let’s talk.
James Brown: If you like the show, write us a review on Apple podcast or wherever you’re listening and do me a favor. Share it with a friend. Thanks to Shannon Green, Ashley May and Connie Schultz for joining us. What do you think about their experiences as moms and what are your feelings about Mother’s Day?
Let me know at jamesbrowntv on Twitter, or email me at [email protected]. We might tell your stories on the show.
Also, to all the dads out there we haven’t forgotten about you. We’re planning on doing a similar show about that holiday in a month. If you’re interested in taking part, email me or tweet me, maybe you’ll join us too.
Thanks to Alexis Gustin for her production assistance. Taylor Wilson will be back tomorrow morning with 5 Things you need to know for Monday, and from all of us at USA Today, thanks for listening. I’m James Brown, and as always be well.
www.usatoday.com
George is Digismak’s reported cum editor with 13 years of experience in Journalism